[00:00:00] matt duench: Welcome to Mistaken Identity. I'm your host, Matt Duench. Throughout the season, we've had the chance to hear from some of the best and brightest minds in product management. We've learned how big name companies secure digital identities, protect their customers, and use innovations like AI to grow their business.

[00:00:18] But one theme has really stuck out to me throughout all of these conversations. Our industry's innovation is just beginning. As we look towards the future of identity management, it's important to understand and consider what's coming next. Let's take a moment to look back on what our guests have had to say about how they are innovating for the future.

[00:00:39] matt duench: First, let's hear from John Gannon. John is co founder of Venture5 Media. During our conversation, he described how incoming tech and AI will transform businesses and increase productivity.

[00:00:51] matt duench: What's the number one tech development that you're most looking forward to?

[00:00:55] john gannon: I am super excited about where AI is going. I, uh, leave, uh, chat, GPT open on my computer all day, and I'm using it pretty much every single day to get real work done in my business and, and I'm only scratching the surface. There's so many other things I could be doing with it related to my business. I just like haven't been able to yet just time-wise. And so I am just so excited to see because pretty much every company is gonna implement, you know, I would say chat GPT is sort of the leader in open ai. Right. I, I think over the next 24 months to see pretty much every software company like implement that to enable new use cases. It's just gonna be really awesome and exciting to be in tech cuz like every product you use, you're gonna see, oh, now it does this like really cool thing because of, of AI and it's gonna make me so much more productive or allow me to create things I couldn't create before. Open up new product opportunities. So I'm like a full, I've drunken the Kool-Aid on AI.

[00:02:02] matt duench: that's, that's something that I'm really looking forward to as well, is I think just the developments that we're seeing daily in, you know, LLM models, new ai, uh, plugins, et cetera, things that are coming. I'm super excited about that. 

[00:02:13] john gannon: One of the things I do all the time is, I take files, I need to, um, sort of reformat them or like get an answer outta some data. And it's, it's, it's the type of thing where pulling it into a spreadsheet is like, it's like a little too cumbersome. And frankly, I'm not that great with spreadsheets, but, uh, I have a system administration background, so I know a little bit of command line stuff, but here's the rub. Going back to the AI thing we just talked about, I am finding myself constantly going to Chat G P T saying, here's a line from a file. All the file lines look like this. Tell me how I can make sure that I print the second field in the fifth field of the line, and it's like almost always gives me exactly what I need. And that's crazy to me because now it's like, wow, I just became 10 times more productive, a thing that would've taken me an hour to go and stack overflow and look up and hack around with literally this thing spits off the code.

[00:03:08] And so I'm super excited about that. Some people, I think, also kind of fear that, which, I understand, but just the, the impact in terms of productivity is, is just gonna be huge for people who really do start to experiment with these, these technologies or, or use them in products that are gonna start to implement them over time.

[00:03:27] matt duench: AI has the power to give John back some time in his day and find new use cases. Our next guest, however, is innovating for the end user. Marla Hay, vice president of product management at Salesforce, says that we have to innovate for a future where we always provide a great customer experience. She says that customers expect a seamless experience, so the future lies in user friendly tech and easy authentication processes. And products with passwords might just become a thing of the past.

[00:03:59] Marla Hay: Customer experience really is kind of the new battleground because they're things that just like do not fly now that flew when, when CIAM was far more nascent that you could get away with. I remember like very early days like, you would use a identity provider and the app was just gonna ask for every single piece of information about you possible. sometimes just to even get into the website. This is like 10 plus years ago. This is a long time ago. And like,

[00:04:25] matt duench: In tech years.

[00:04:26] Marla Hay: That was a long time ago. In tech years. Yeah. Uh, and that was obviously a terrible idea even at that time when we'd always dissuade anyone from doing that, just from like a common sense perspective, but it wasn't like totally anathema, uh, in the tech world or in the app world or in the, in the retail world to do something like that. And now it would, it would just be ridiculous. Like that would never fly. everything is done with the lowest friction possible. If somebody encountered a, experiences with even like a modicum of friction there are people who are do now we see what it looks like to do it well. There are enough people who are doing it well.

[00:04:59] Consumers are like, well, I don't have to put up with this. They know what they can demand. And rightly so, like, it is absolutely paramount that we have incredibly seamless and transparent and invisible hand type experiences. I mean, and that's really like, the standard. It's not even like, it's not even the gold standard anymore. It's like,that's the baseline. Like you need to have a good, positive experience to retain any consumers, let alone gain, uh, loyalty and build up those KPIs.

[00:05:30] matt duench: You're right. It's really the expectation now, right? I think about how my kids interact with technology, right? Touch screens. It seems simple, but it's just, that's the expectation that everything that has a screen you should be able to touch. And I constantly have to clean my, my television, and screen because there's not a touch screen.

[00:05:45] You know, a similar type of experience to my kids. You know, assuming that that touch experience exists everywhere, is becoming how folks are really expecting how they log in or sign up, and then interact really with a digital application. Right. So I think there's a couple things that you hit on earlier around how folks can, like some things that they can think about to improve security, like multifactor authentication and SSO and biometrics, et cetera. What about from a customer experience perspective? What are some ways, uh, that companies could improve that customer experience or the way that customers interact with their digital applications?

[00:06:19] Marla Hay: Put simply make people remember as little as possible. There is no more disappointing feeling than showing up on a screen and then all of a sudden, then the next step. There's a login screen and you're like, uh oh, I don't remember this. Like, who am I on here? What is my username? As much as possible, making it so you are using information that is super easily accessible to that person. And so that's like devices, like if you can, if you can send somebody a code or you can send somebody a link or you can give them information that will help them prove their identity or validate who they are. Use those biometrics, use the location, use the device that they're coming from to help you really kind of triangulate, Hey, we got a pretty good idea of who this person is. and then do what you need to, to validate that.

[00:07:10] Don't give them absolutely nothing and then tell them you, you figure it out. Good luck getting in here.

[00:07:17] matt duench: Yeah, that's, that's exactly it. One thing that I'm really excited for is passkey technology. I think some of the things that even Google has announced recently and, and opening up passkey technology across all now commercial and even workplace, uh, you know, properties is pretty awesome. Now, I don't have to remember a password. We're very much on, if not the dawn, we're even past it. It might even be noon or midday around us never, ever needing passwords again, which I'm really excited about.

[00:07:44] Marla Hay: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I feel like for everybody who's been in the identity industry, especially, From earlier days, it's likeeverybody's been beating the same drum of like, we've gotta get rid of passwords. And it feels like it's finally happening. And it really does take, like, it does take like a Google, an Apple. Like it takes these big, big, big, um, identity providers with those types of capabilities to be able to do something like that and to make it like ubiquitous so that you're You're really able to kind of go anywhere and you've got, there's some hint of one of those, elements somewhere that you can, so that you can use PAs keys, really across the board.

[00:08:21] I think it's a very exciting time for, um, for authentication and it's a re it's a good reason to, also make sure we're offloading things like those authentication capabilities to, to companies that are like, that, that's what they do. or like that's a big part of what, what they're working on. It's exciting to see that.

[00:08:39] matt duench: Marla also spoke about how Salesforce is pursuing innovation with artificial intelligence. The biggest takeaway is that we need to think about how we incorporate the tech that our customers are using into our very own products.

[00:08:52] matt duench: How are you, uh, helping to drive that innovation at Salesforce? How is Salesforce pursuing innovation? And what do you think is important for driving innovation? What do you need? What are some of those things that help to do that?

[00:09:04] Marla Hay: Understanding like, um, where like, where technology is going and then being able to apply that to the jobs the customer is, is really trying to get to get done, um, are gonna be the most crucial things. Um, and, and some on some level it's like, uh, what is like. You can baby step some level of innovation if it doesn't in, in involve like technological advances.

[00:09:33] So like, at a job a long time ago, we, we were making a, we were trying to sort of incrementally improve the process of some folks that were working in an application to do, um, to do like credit card processing for like small dollar like product renewals and. We, at first it was like, Hey, can you just make it easier for them to do, to input the data into these like fields in this application?

[00:09:59] And then it was like, well, we, you know, we could, we could actually, like if we gave them a different kind of a different application and just we put the stuff in there, we don't have to mess. We could make it a lot easier for them to communicate with the customer, but then it was like, Hey, you know what, why do we even, why do they even need to communicate with the customer? They're like manually inputting all this data. Just why aren't we just like giving them a, a, like a payment gateway and having the customer do it themselves. And then they can just email the customer and then like, well wait a minute, why don't we just automatically send the email to why do we have a person doing this at all?

[00:10:32] Like we can just automate these responses and have them do the payment gate. So if you could take little steps like that towards innovation or there's also just, um, like tying the technological leaps to the things your customers, the jobs your customers are doing. So something like, Like generative AI is like such a huge, huge game changer for the way our customers are going to be able to create more personalized experiences to be able to like, help their customers, like, get the help they need to help, uh, to help like, improve the relationship with, um, with their customers.

[00:11:09] So it, that is seeing that technology and then saying like, Oh my gosh. Our customers are doing so many things right now that this will help them with how do we get this into our products ASAP so that they can use them in a way that really helps them speed up their own innovation and their own journeys with like this technology that's really revolutionizing.

[00:11:30] matt duench: Next, we'll hear from Shiv Ramji. President of Customer Identity Cloud at Okta. In our interview, Shiv described how his team defines innovation.

[00:11:40] Shiv Ramji: Innovation happens every day. And so I encourage our teams to think about innovation, at all levels, in all sizes. So for example, um, uh, recently I asked their team, you know, we were doing some optimizations for our platform. Um, and just like every other companies, you know, they're looking at their cloud span and optimizing their platforms. And so we tasked our engineering teams to think about ways we can, excuse me, uh, reduce our cloud footprint and cost, and we just said, Hey, you know, this is generally the goal that we wanna go after. Um, and all cre, any and all creative ideas are welcome. And so the team independently sort of figured out creative ways to reduce, um, uh, our cloud costs and, and. So there was, there is, there is creativity and innovation there already.

[00:12:33] Right Now we don't call that innovation or we may not be labeled it that way, but, but really that's what it is. Um, so, so we encourage everybody to do things like that, uh, in small ways every day within their sprints. And then we also have, um, at least in our business, we. We do have problems that, you know, probably reside beyond that 18 to 24 month, uh, roadmap or timeline that we have. And so we have a small labs team that's constantly thinking about. New technologies, new experiences, um, and new innovations that we can, that we can, uh, incubate there. 

[00:13:10] matt duench: Shiv also talked about what he expects for the future. He's excited about a passwordless future and the evolution of identity data. And frankly, I cannot wait until passwords are a thing of the past.

[00:13:22] Shiv Ramji: Seeing the evolution of, um, pass keys, uh, I think is, is really, really important. Uh, really helps us to get to this passwordless future that we wanna, that we, that we're all striving for. So I'm, I'm really excited about, uh, about that and supporting that. The, the second one is around some of the evolution that's happening around, um, what, what I call identity data that's locked in the analog or offline world. And so examples of that tend to be obviously your, your, um, you know, driver's license or state id, uh, passports, uh, visas and so on and so forth. 

[00:14:00] So we, we have this concept, uh, we have been experimenting with sort of verifiable credentials now, uh, for a while. And I think as, uh, these new platforms such as, uh, and I think Apple and, and Google are working on this, you know, they're gonna be onboarding more and more states to have your, your, your id, uh, kind of available, uh, on, in your, in your, um, Phone wallet in your digital wallet.

[00:14:26] And, um, I think that's the beginning of, uh, of a journey of onboarding a lot of, uh, infor identity information that's locked up in offline silos to, to come, to become, uh, digital. And so I'm pretty bullish that there's gonna be a time when, um, You're gonna be able to pick and choose what data you want to share with, with an app, uh, and, and what type of verification you wanna provide. And you'll be able to use, you know, just your phone, your, or your apps, uh, to, to, to do all of it. Um, and so I think that's really, really exciting. Um, and what's exciting about that, if you're a product manager or if you're just a listener, uh, is that you'll be able to build these amazing experiences. I mean, can you imagine No more walking around with your paper transcripts and degrees and, and, uh, med insurance cards and, and identity, uh, or, or, uh, state ID cards. I mean, imagine all of that in your, in your digital wallet and you having the capability to decide what information you would like to, you would like to share with an application and for what purposes.

[00:15:33] And I think so that, so I'm, I'm really excited about. What that world looks like and what role we can play in that to make sure that we're making, uh, it easy for our customers to deliver these seamless experiences, but then also making sure that consumers get to experience.

[00:15:51] matt duench: Innovating for the future definitely means making products easy for consumers and delivering seamless experiences at the same time. Tricia Price, Chief Product Officer at Pendo, had some brilliant ideas on how to balance innovation and the customer experience at the very same time.

[00:16:07] Matt Deunch: What are your thoughts on how folks can really balance innovation and the customer experience at the same time? Cause a lot of times it's really where you put your efforts and your focus, but do you have thoughts on where and how folks might be able to balance innovation with that user experience?

[00:16:20] Trisha Price: I mean, to me, I think they're one and the same. Right. Like I, if, if I'm, like, for me right now I'm working on like everybody else, some AI innovations and launching some new modules and products that are really AI based. It's like, okay, do I just check a box and say, oh, I innovated, I've got a new AI product. Or if I'm really saying no, what I'm trying to drive is an outcome. I'm trying to get more value to my customer base. So something's automated that wasn't automated, or they're getting an insight that they weren't getting before. I can't do that without user experience being at the center of it. Because, because otherwise they're not gonna get the value that you're, you're aiming for. Right. And so for me, like for me, my user experience team, my research and design teams are critical. When I'm thinking about new innovations in new product launches, like they are at the center of the research and the design teams, yes, product is obviously understanding the market and the requirements, but the how and what that experience will look like is, is equally important to me when we're innovating.

[00:17:23] Matt Deunch: I think you're absolutely right. They're intrinsically linked, right? It's, it's, it's around how you drive innovation for your customer. Because, I mean, the user experience is really oftentimes perceived as a balancing act between security and, like you mentioned, friction. It's, it's really this balancing point between security and the experience. Security obviously is meant to put controls in place to validate you are who you say you are, or make sure that you have the right, you know, credentials to access this application. Um, and sometimes if it's, if there's too much friction in that process, right?

[00:17:55] If we're constantly challenging the user at login and subsequent login, et cetera, with an MFA challenge and you know, pick out all of the cats wearing the hats in this capture challenge, uh, you know, that that does it at the detriment a lot of times of the user experience. So, do you have any thoughts on, on how folks can really think about that balance of delivering security, without compromising the user experience and consequently delivering a great user experience without compromising security? I.

[00:18:22] Trisha Price: To me, whether your B2C or B2B or whatever digital product or channel you're trying to build for your customer's, trust is at the center. If, if customers can't trust you and can't trust your products, you're done. It doesn't matter what value you offer. You, you can't lose their trust. And so security has to be at the center of everything that you do. And that's how we certainly think about it at Pendo. And so I think you can balance the two of those, right? I think there's been. Um, a lot of advance advancements with single sign-on and other tools. And, you know, you mentioned mfa, like there's multiple ways you can go about MFA and Yeah. Does MFA create one more step in the process and a little bit of friction? Yes. But at the same time, if, if customers can't trust that they can do business with you and that their data, um, is, is to be protected. They're also not gonna do business with you no matter what value you deliver. And so, you know, finding that special intersection of the two is all of our jobs when we create digital experiences.

[00:19:26] AI's another example, right? Like now, You know, with all of the, the new large language models and all of the tools that are out there now, you're gonna have to share that information with those tools as well in order for your user base and customer base to take advantage of your new AI features.

[00:19:43] How do you think about that? How do you think about. What information is reasonable to share with those tools? Where do you need opt-ins? And we spend a lot of time thinking about that as a group cross-functionally with our ciso, our product team, our, our, our legal team, and really trying to make sure we're doing the right things for our customers and providing the value and balancing that with trust and security.

[00:20:06] matt duench: After those tips of taking advantage of new technologies, we need to consider security too, but not at the expense of the customer experience. Bringing AI isn't enough. We have to make sure that we do it safely. Dan Schiappa, Chief Product Officer at Arctic Wolf, had some great ideas. 

[00:20:24] matt duench: How do you consider balancing, um, that innovation and security together, but also what are some of the trends that you're seeing, really broad trends that you're trying to build for or solve for?

[00:20:35] Dan Schiappa: The thing for us is, is really looking at, um, the, the broad IT landscape. I think one of the challenges that we've had in security is we tend to try and solve, uh, the overall problem, one little piece at a time. So, we'll, some it'll focus on endpoint. Some also focus on firewalls. You know, focus on cloud and you focus on vulnerabilities and, and customers just like want the problem solved.

[00:20:57] And so today, when you come in and you'd say, Hey, I, I, you know, I have a posture management solution, they don't care if it's a cloud posture management or for, it's, you know, based on virtual infrastructure or on-premise. They just want the problem solved. And so I think, you know, we are starting to look at things a little more holistically.

[00:21:11] So when we wanna go in, for example, with a, with a detect and response solution. We don't care where in your IT stack, it's coming from where other vendors will charge, you know, for, for the cloud separately than, than traditional IT and, and virtual it. And it, it, it gets really confusing to customers. And, and at the end of the day, you know, I think security is still a, a very highly prioritized budget item.

[00:21:35] We can, you know, through the power of our platform, take any IT security infrastructure they have and make, you know, benefit out of it to them and, and give them one place to come and interface with. And then the way we deliver it through our concierge service gives them almost like a white glove kind of treatment as well. So they have a human being, is there available to them to help them, you know, doing security posture assessments up front, but also help answer any questions they have while we're delivering the service to them as well.

[00:22:04] matt duench: As Dan and I talked about what to expect from the future, he made a great point that we need to think about where tech and society are headed as a whole. From there, we can build great products that solve problems that customers don't even know they have yet. 

[00:22:18] matt duench: What are some of the ways you feel that companies can keep customers at the heart of everything that they build when it comes to product?

[00:22:25] Dan Schiappa: Yeah, I mean, it's just really some good old fashioned stuff you've learned, hopefully from, from day one, which is, you know, solve a problem the customer has. Don't just provide technology to a customer. Uh, and so when you have a solution that helps solve a problem they're dealing with, it resonates really well with the customer.

[00:22:42] It obviously works out well for your business. Uh, and then everybody's happy when you, you're building kind of technology for technology's sake. Uh, and it doesn't directly solve some immediate problem with a customer. That's, that's a problem. And I think as part of us, and I think in any industry, but really in security, you know, we are trying to think ahead of our customers.

[00:23:01] So we wanna start thinking about things that maybe they're not worried about today, that we think they're gonna be worried about, but that also, by the time you're ready with that, you're gonna be solving a problem that they need. So you still need to be able to look around corners, understand, you know, where the world's going.

[00:23:15] And for us in security, Sometimes we get lost on thinking about where security is gonna be in the future instead of just thinking about where it and general society is gonna be in the future. And then how we build security mechanisms to protect that. And so, you know, I think that's the, the two key things is solve a problem for your customer and also be out there looking for problems that they don't know they have yet.

[00:23:38] matt duench: Up next is Arun Mohan, Head of Product at Credit Karma. We dove into today's theme of innovation straight away. If you innovate to build user value, revenue will follow.

[00:23:50] matt duench: How does, how does Credit Karma, or even in your role at Credit Karma, how do you think about innovation, um, and what do you think the most important thing is for driving that innovation?

[00:23:58] Arun Mohan: So understanding, deepening understanding of consumers, use your product today. Uh, understanding your true strengths as a company, which you can like really lean into. Uh, and also being very, uh, humble and aware of your gaps, that you need to be more deliberate about bridging, either through more research or more expertise or partnerships or acquisitions or whatever, right?

[00:24:20] I think that that is being very honest about that. I think it's gonna be important to succeed with innovation. Um, and I think taking a, the last point is take a build for user value, revenue will come. The mindset, uh, credit Karma is where it is today because of our c e o really being diligent about ensuring that's the culture and it's really played out well. You know, for the longest time we, you know, the, the founders just set out to be like, Hey, credit score, people shouldn't have to pay for credit scores. Period. Let's go solve that problem. We'll get a user base and we'll figure out how to make money because they'll trust us. We actually became the good guys in a bad space and we'll figure out how to make money. And that's exactly what happened. But if not, if they would've really taken focus away from that user value and solving the user problem and tried to like, Figure out unit economics and all that pretty early. I think we might not be where we are today, but that also meant the long, it took a lot, lot longer for Credit Karma to get to where it is, but the outcome was way, way better than it could have been otherwise.

[00:25:25] So, so yeah, build for user value, revenue will come. Um, and I think, uh, the, going back to the initial point on how consumers perceive our brand today, I think it's really important to think about, uh, like Credit Karma, as I said, most people think about the product as primarily a credit score monitoring product and a credit monitoring product. Um, even though we have a bunch of other products and services that we offer today. So if we are making recommendations for a credit card or recommendations for consolidating a debt with a personal loan, for example, um, instead of just showing you offers you could qualify for. Connecting that recommendation to like, Hey, you've been working hard on your credit. Here's what your improved credit score is unlocked for you, is way more aligning a net new product zone to something that the consumers already think about your product has, as opposed to thinking about it in a silo in isolation. So if you don't, if you miss that, then I think it gets a lot harder to build new, innovative products.

[00:26:27] matt duench: Then, Arun got a point on our buzzword bingo card. Unprompted, we swear, he dove directly into generative AI. 

[00:26:34] matt duench: What's the tech development that you're most excited for, that you're most looking forward to?

[00:26:39] Arun Mohan: Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna be the first one to use this word in the last week. Uh, it's called Gen ai.

[00:26:46] matt duench: Oh, Gen AI.

[00:26:50] Arun Mohan: Uh, I am excited about the applications of deepening the applications of AI, specifically within consumer finance.Someone who's really thought about this arduous journey of buying a home and the American dream and all the things you need to do to get there, and how can we make it easier? I think one of the challenges that we've run into, for example, is buying a home, for example, is a very emotional decision. It's a life event. Driven decision. Oftentimes, it's not just you got all your finances in order, so you're just gonna buy a house. It's not always the case, and it's always been very hard to really look at all of the people who have been on the journey and to really understand what your journey could be, and to give you very actionable, tangible next steps you can take to achieve that goal within a specific timeframe. Really hard to do at scale with just heuristics and rules. Uh, And I think things like that would really, gen AI can really come in, tap into like consumer identities and profile data at large platforms like Credit Karma and really help hyper-personalized the next steps and the things you need to do to achieve your financial goals.

[00:28:00] And I think I'm really hoping that technology really helps solve for a lot of challenges people have with like access to lack of access to home ownership and lack of understanding of the process and all of that. So Gen AI within consumer finance is something I'm very excited about.

[00:28:16] matt duench: I fully agree. I think obviously it goes without saying that, you know, that technology alone is going to introduce both massive opportunity, I think for every business and every industry. And a lot of really new risks too, that we weren't thinking about before. Because yes, as great as a generator of AI recommendation or contextual recommendation might be, there is also those AI powered attacks that are starting to, um, you know, uh, folks are, they're getting craftier with it. You could take a lot of that complexity of building an attack out of it and start pointing it at a website and saying, okay, show me where all the vulnerabilities are.

[00:28:51] It gets really unique both on the opportunity side and the things that we need to think about as businesses and how we keep our users' data safe. How, how do we protect their privacy, keep their, their trusted tact and, and really just establish those, uh, you know, elements of risk that we can make sure that we're keeping them away from.

[00:29:07] So.

[00:29:07] Arun Mohan: Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the context of kind of future of data for and privacy, I think in the context of gen AI, like how we built better tools and infrastructure to, to strengthen that is. It's gonna be pivotal and I mean, I, I'm hoping kind of the, the shiny toy phase of gen AI is gonna cool off a little bit and all of the use cases will cool off a little bit and the industry will take one step back to really kind of invest in more tooling and infrastructure and security and privacy.

[00:29:36] Uh, and then there's gonna be the real accelerant of value that's gonna come in the next 10 to 15 years. Uh, but that scale is not gonna come until some of these fundamental infrastructure and security challenges aren't, uh, sound. Uh, we just gotta write out the current phase and I think, uh, I think we'll get to it.

[00:29:54] matt duench: Let's wrap up with what trends we're looking forward to. I asked Geordie McClelland, Head of Digital Strategy at Delve, what he's keeping an eye on.

[00:30:03] matt duench: When you think about the future, like what's happening with technology and some of the trends there, what are some of the trends that you are seeing in technology development that you're, you're kind of keeping an eye on?

[00:30:13] Geordie McClelland: Yeah, I mean, we haven't talked very much about it yet. Um, so just to make sure we get our check mark, uh, you know, our AI check mark, I mean, we, it, you've gotta make sure you know it. It's something we're highly sensitive to in terms of, you know, Every phase of product development. We've certainly seen increases in efficiencies using tools like copilot from a development side, uh, to, to make that happen. You know, the other side of that though is, you know, I think some, some fundamental questions. I think one of the things that, that really drew me to, um, to delve is, uh, their 55 years of getting things to market and building, building products and industries around those products. There's a, there's a high level of practicality in what they do. And success isn't just, you know, kind of the, the, the great moment at c e s that people talk about, but you never see in the market. Um, it's more about the, the, the interactions that you have with these tools in your workplace, in your life. With that level of practicality, there's, I think, um, some, some healthy skepticism about kind of the, you know, the nature of kind of existing AI models, um, from data security perspectives, um, you know, both in terms of. How we feed that with new information. And then even just fundamental questions about kind of the, the, the, the information that's gone into the original data sets.

[00:31:44] Um, and, and what that means again, from, from a user perspective. Um, you know, if you think about, uh, you know, some of the challenges with like facial recognition and how that doesn't. Kind of, it doesn't track consistently across races. If you were to, to build something people first, it would maybe act very differently than let's build the model and now try to apply it to those spaces.

[00:32:08] That means that, you know, marginalized communities maybe further marginalized and we need to be conscious Of that and understand what that, that the implications are for that. Um, and, and that also becomes a decision point of, well, Can we use it? What's the, what's the risk of, uh, copyrighted material suddenly being taken out of the dataset because that wasn't part of the original consideration in building it.

[00:32:34] Um, you know, those are really fundamental questions that a lot of people are talking about. Um, and finally starting to get, I think some, uh, um, uh, some airtime for those concerns, even though I, I think they've been around for a long time. Uh, so, you know, I think there's a cautious optimism. Um, but kind of a pragmatic kind of, you know, mindful approach for how and when we're gonna use those tools going forward.

[00:33:01] matt duench: I agree with Geordie. As we prepare for new user experiences and more complex technologies, we have reason to be cautiously optimistic. If we take a mindful approach, these new tools can help us build better products that customers love. We'll be able to work faster to enhance user security while optimizing the customer experience all while making those steps easier for the user.

[00:33:26] One thing has been made clear by the guests on our show. We have plenty to look forward to in the product world, whether you're building or buying new tech and AI will help us create our best products yet. I can't wait for the guests of the season to bring even more insight into what we have in store.

[00:33:44] Thanks for listening to this bonus episode of Mistaken Identity. I'm Matt Duench, and I'll catch you next time.