[00:00:24] Matt Duench: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode of the Mistaken Identity Podcast. I am here today with Geordie McClellan, head of Digital Strategy at Delve. Geordie, welcome to the show.

[00:00:35] Geordie McClelland: Matt, thanks so much for having me.

[00:00:37] Matt Duench: I'm really excited to have you today, especially, you know, given your title of Head of Digital Strategy.

[00:00:42] I think this is a really unique area, uh, for folks to learn from you in terms of how they build, uh, really great experiences that customers love. So, again, welcome.

[00:00:51] Geordie McClelland: Thanks so much. Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

[00:00:53] Matt Duench: The first thing I think we should do is delve into your experience. So what, uh, what is your role at Delve? What is your, uh, you know, give us some insight into what your role is, head of digital strategy involved.

[00:01:05] Geordie McClelland: Yeah, so let me just, uh, first start with a little bit about Delve. So, Delve is a multidisciplinary product design and innovation firm. Um, we've got now over 55 years of building products from design, uh, initial concepting, all the way into getting them into market. Uh, and we have, um, you know, a, a legacy of of physical industrial design work that, uh, the, the company has now kind of looked to expand to, to really start to meet people where they are. And you know, because people are living in, you know, a digital and physical world these days, um, Delve has continued to expand and invest in its digital product design. Um, I came into deve now two months ago, uh, when my firm alter a digital design firm was acquired by, by, by Delve. And my role today and as a, uh, Head of Digital Strategy is really, you know, looking for those opportunities, , within kind of the digital realm to, to, to find where that kind of intersection of where a business product opportunity is and where people's needs are. What's great from working in a, in a company like Delve is we have an opportunity as digital specialists to work with industrial design specialists, people, um, who are focused on kind of continual innovation in a product side, side and focused on and focusing in on, on what customers need. So, you know, if that need kind of hits in the digi digital realm, then, then we come together and figure out how we're gonna serve it.

[00:02:46] Matt Duench: The role of digital, uh, you know, in business today and UX design has really evolved over the past few years. Um, even yourself, how, what led you into your current role? How did you kind of get started and what led you there?

[00:02:58] Geordie McClelland: What fascinates me most is people, honestly. Um, and I started my career now, um, approaching 25 years ago and, you know, trying to figure out how to, how to build things, how to really create things that people are gonna use and that, that hopefully make a positive difference in their life. And, you know, coming outta school right around, um, the first kind of.com bust, there was a lot of opportunity and excitement a, around this area. I'm actually a, an English major, um, coming outta school. So I have no technical training as I started my career. But, but really just, uh, kind of a, a deep empathy for, you know, what people might need and, and how we can build things for them. And digital at the time was just kind of where things, where there was a lot of energy, where it was easy to, to frankly, start with you know, less experienced, um, than, than maybe some of my colleagues on the engineering side. And, and really just jump in and, and start to figure out how we're gonna make these tools work for people.

[00:03:59] You know, the focus still is always the people. Um, technology is gonna change and evolve and grow, uh, but, you know, people's needs kind of stay pretty similar and, uh, and, and, you know, always trying to, to, to figure out the best ways to leverage that, those technological advances and service of people is just really, um, exciting and intriguing to me.

[00:04:20] Matt Duench: I'd love to unpack that a bit, even just generally your experiences and, and sort of what you've been able to, to learn over the years. So, In your current role, obviously you work in a, in like an area that has a, a really heavy focus on building products that have critically important security measures as well. What's your approach to even start, uh, building products with critically important security measures?

[00:04:42] Geordie McClelland: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, the security piece, um, is, is obviously a, a critical space, but what's what's important is to really understand the space is that we play in, you know, so Delve does work in healthcare. We do work in commercial industry, and we do work in consumer. Those needs and the, the, the extent to which you, you need to be concerned about them, certainly as, as you know, is, is different.

[00:05:06] So, so part of it is really just a, an awareness of, you know, the, the security needs. By what the, the industry we're building for, what the tools we're really using, uh, and, and making sure that that's kind of a starting place. Um, you know, uh, regulations certainly help with that, uh, to, to give you kind of a, uh, a baseline to understand what, what you need to achieve. That's an important thing because, you know, there's, I think companies like Okta build the technology where you can have, you know, high levels of confidence in super secure systems. Uh, But sometimes that's, you know, that that level of security isn't necessary and it kind of gets in the way of user experience and knowing that, um, you know, people's most likely response when kind of faced with any product experience is to do nothing, um, or to do the easiest path.

[00:06:00] Uh, you, you need to be aware of, you know, really what that threshold for security is gonna be. Getting into an understanding of, from a product perspective, how people want to engage, how they need to engage in the context of the work that they're doing, that you're helping them with, or the part of their life that you're trying to, um, to assist with, uh, and, and making sure that, you are not only kind of building a product experience that is, uh, is going to kind of fit in seamlessly in those, uh, those behaviors, you, You get that first start from a regulatory perspective. Um, relying on our, our colleagues on the, on the engineering side to, to make sure that, you know, what we're recommending is, is in fact secure. But then a lot of it starts to get into kind of user testing. Um, you know, because the end of the day, you know, if, if it's not something that people are going to use in a easy, intuitive way. Um, they're gonna find workarounds and, you know, that really becomes a, a security challenge. Um, maybe one of the preeminent challenges is that, you know, people, um, I, you know, often don't understand and ha have a tough time quantifying the, the security risk, um, and the potential impact they have on themselves or their businesses by, by working around that.

[00:07:24] If it gets in the way of them doing things, it, it often is gonna be something that they're gonna work around, and that, that presents a real, real challenge. So user testing, continual refinement, um, is a, is a huge part of, of that process and that's something that, that my team engages in a lot.

[00:07:40] Matt Duench: You mentioned, I mean, that path of least resistance, right? When it comes to security, oftentimes you and I have chatted about this before. I. Is that that user becomes the weakest link, right? And, and sort of protecting the application or the experience. And,if we're not thinking about incorporating those security elements as part of the user experience and designing that user experience, whatever, whatever you do with technology raises a threat, right? So how do, how do you think about that in terms of how you take care of users and security at the same time? So providing a great experience and balancing the security risks.

[00:08:15] Geordie McClelland: it's a core understanding of, from a security perspective, you know, what is the, the technology best practice. That gives us a baseline from a product experience of, of what we need to do, uh, in order to. Keep data secure to, uh, confirm identity and, and, and all of that. Getting into concepting, um, built around kind of those, those baseline parameters and, and, testing those, those with users. You're gonna understand and discover a lot. You know, when you present kind of a, a new Vision of how someone might interact with a thing, um, it's super hard to anticipate even just, you know, using best practices. This is what's gonna happen. Um, 'cause almost by nature, every time you, you create something new, you kind of shift people's understanding of what's possible and how they should engage. So, so getting concepts in, in front of folks, um, making sure that those, um, you know, that those security flows are ones that they feel confident in, um, that, you know, isn't disruptive of the workflow, but also, you know, gives them a sense of understanding of maybe why this is happening too.

[00:09:27] You know, people have a really challenging time assessing threats. I mean, people are afraid of getting on an airplane, but get in their car every day, and it's just a mismatch of really what, what a threat and risk is. And, and that carries into everything that we do. So, you know, That education piece I think is a real critical part of, of what we need to do from, again, from a concepting perspective. Um, you, you need to be able to get into, um, a, a number of different revs of concept test, learn, refine, um, and, you know, the security piece is, is not unlike any other piece of the, the, the user experience.

[00:10:08] Um, You need to de design with a, with an understanding that, um, again, you know, people's most likely response is to, to not do anything. Um, and that's no, I I, I, I love and respect people. It's why I get into this business. But also part of loving and respecting people is a, is an acknowledgement that, you know, we all have some failures and, and one of our failures is, you know, inertia. Um, and, uh, and, and you need to acknowledge that you need to design around that.

[00:10:39] Matt Duench: The point around designing experiences around the human element too, and that user experience and, and obviously given your role, you're focused on the digital strategy, which is important. It's, it's important to building experiences that people. Like think about and that they want to use natively, but how do you, how, what are some thoughts that go through your mind when you think about how you can make everything user first or human first user centric?

[00:11:03] Geordie McClelland: My title is like a digital strategy, head of digital strategy. Um, but more important to me, I. than kind of digital strategy is now I'm part of a, an organization that, you know, has the opportunity to execute cross digital and physical. Um, and you know, in some ways, I think one thing in, in serving people, you kind of feel like a, if you're digital only, you're a hammer in search of a nail. Um, all of which is to say that the process really does need to start with, uh, you know, comfortable. One, kind of a core understanding of what a company wants to achieve, who they're trying to serve, what they think they can, uh, deliver to those folks. Um, and then, you know, spending time really trying to understand, uh, with people, uh, how they're achieving those things today, what some of those challenges are, the tools that they're using, um, you know, kind of their, their own barriers to kind of achieving what this company wants them to be able to do. So it's, you know, it's that, that deep kind of one-on-one, almost ethnographic research that that gets into an understanding of. Really, you know, the, the, the full kind of user journey in a present state. Uh, you know, the, that understanding and we spend a lot of time here again, you know, as a digital team on physical whiteboards, kind of mapping that out and identifying really the opportunities where, you know, we can improve those experiences overall, like where are the challenges that are people facing, what are the ways in which we can concept that are gonna make that less challenging, that are gonna advance that going forward?

[00:12:44] What are the applications that are gonna do that? How much of it's digital? How much of it's physical? You know, where within digital are those opportunities? Because the industry moves so quickly, you certainly get some people who will come and say, I need an app, or I need, you know, a piece of software and they have that level of definition. But I. But more often it, it's just kind of this broader understanding of this is what we need to achieve for these people, help us kind of figure it out and what that's gonna be, which gives us a lot of license to really, really build against, um, customer, user needs. Um, and, and, and again, you know, with here, the, the, the team at Delve, you know, a very good outcome coming out of a strategic understanding of what people need, could be, I pass it off to my industrial design colleagues because that's where the opportunity is. 

[00:13:35] So, you know, finding those opportunities, from kind of a user first perspective and then building against that concepting and testing and, and you know, as I said a little bit ago in concepting and testing, showing people that there might be a better way to do something and then continuing to learn from them.

[00:13:54] Back to our conversation about, uh, uh, um, about security. You know, you're gonna show them a certain, uh, flow. You're gonna show them a couple of interactions. They may, um, not only kind of point out some of the challenges, but also raise some opportunities and start to get into to, to co-creation because again, you've shifted their sense of what's possible in service of achieving what they may have had troubles achieving before.

[00:14:21] Matt Duench: Yeah. And, and I think with that concept of the user experience and security, like I, I'd love to hear if you've, you share a similar sort of thought is that sometimes I think you need to slow, like deliberately slow the user down right, into, into making, like having them make a deliberate decision about what they're doing. Right. So I, one of the reasons you're trying to do that is to help them prepare for the potential of a, of a security incident. Um, and where they need to slow down. So if they're going too fast and they're acknowledging every single one time passcode that they're getting, or multifactor challenge, et cetera, it could be very well, a phishing campaign. Or it could be a phishing, uh, attack against them. Um, so thinking about like how you maybe accelerate them and where, where you think about decelerating, you know, their experience. Does that, does that fit at all in sort of what you think about when you design some of these experiences?

[00:15:11] Geordie McClelland: Absolutely. I think one of the challenges with digital is like, too often as a, as you know, a practice, we kind of hold this hard and fast rule that like frictionless experiences are the best experiences. Um, I. Spend a lot of time working in, in e-commerce and, you know, you certainly want to build confidence in these are the things you want. And then once someone has it in the cart, you want to get out of the way so that they're, they're making that purchase and, you know, the, the least amount of friction along that path is gonna get folks to, um, to, to convert more often. That kind of mentality is, I think, very pervasive in, in how, you know, we generally design things in digital overall. But your point is a really, really good one.

[00:15:52] There are moments where taking a more considered action are, are really critical. Um, and, you know, we've done things, you know, whether it's security or authorization of, you know, terms and conditions. You know, we've tried a lot of things. I think as an industry will, what, to, to get people to slow down. But on like the terms and conditions side, you know, you have pages and pages and pages of stuff, and people scroll right down to accept and they have no idea what they're accepting. And we've, we've kind of, sadly I think, trained people to bypass a lot of these things that in a perfect world, They would actually consider, um, and, and, and, and stop. So, you know, as, as you talk about, you know, phishing or, or spoofing, um, those are I think really, really good examples. Um, you know, especially in, in the context of, of work where, uh, you know, our frictionless mentality and, and our, our focus on productivity means that, You know, we have our first instinct is any, any email that looks like it's coming from my boss, I'll, I'll give him anything. My security, my social security number, whatever it is, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass it off. And, you know, we've done, I think, too good a job of training people to do that. So, you know, those types of opportunities where, you know, if there's any sort of detection and differences and like, you know, um, uh, uh, a sender address that's, uh, that, that will.

[00:17:18] Stop people for even just a moment to, to kind of reconsider, uh, of what, what action they might take or, or hopefully not take in that, in that scenario. Um, you know, being a little bit more purposeful about, um, you know, even talking about why security matters in certain state places. Um, you know, and it can't be the, the five pages of the terms and conditions, but just like well-written UX copy that, that just gives people the right information that they need, makes 'em feel confident in the decisions that they're about to take. The numbers are crazy. I think it's something like 50% of, you know, breaches are just caused by human error. Um, and, you know, Our friends, our engineering friends can, can build the best thing. But if we aren't thinking about that user experience, we aren't thinking about kind of getting people to slow down when appropriate, take that right action. Um, you know, we're always just opening the door to, to all the data and, and, and information that we're, we're here to protect.

[00:18:24] Matt Duench: When you think about that concept of building applications and taking that user-centric approach, how do you do it in such a way, So that, you know, the end user doesn't feel like, you know, the, the tech, they don't even feel the tech they're using.

[00:18:36] It just feels like a natural part of how they're interacting with your brand or the experience that they're having with your brand.

[00:18:43] Geordie McClelland: Yeah. You know, I, so, so part of that is being, I think I. First stage, stage, kind of being agnostic about exactly the tech you're gonna use, um, to be able to serve that need. Um, you know, we've seen all sorts of like, hype cycles Last year it was the metaverse, um, that was going to, you know, change the way in which we, we interact.

[00:19:04] And, you know, if you come from a, a tech first perspective, um, in many ways you are just kind of, you know, you're. You're looking and trying to fit an application for a consumer need, and, and that's necessarily going to give you a different outcome from a product experience than if you start with people and really start to understand their needs, what they are doing, the tools that they're using today.

[00:19:28] It's not to say, you know, they won't use new tools, but, but you know, the path of least resistance is, is really, you know, how can you, Figure out ways to kind of build on behaviors and patterns that they are already doing, and then create something on top of that, you know, it, it starts to feel seamless if it fits seamless into their existing lifestyle and behaviors. I think about kind of technology that's truly changed human behaviors. There's been social media, like the iPhone introduction. Um, Cloud computing and, and I feel like we're on the edge with AI here, but that's like four things in 25 years. It doesn't happen very often.

[00:20:09] So, so part of it is really just kind of finding those, those applications, those places, uh, um, where you're gonna start. we are just huge believers in concepting testing, learning, and continuing to build, um, because you know that, that, that more kind of, Invisible idea of technology.

[00:20:31] Um, in, in most cases it, it is an illusion, but like, if you design well, people are willing to play into that illusion. They, they, they buy into that, they want to be a part of it. So, you know, I would almost say that it's, you know, if you can kind of fit into their lifestyle, you can fit into their workflow or wherever it is, um, and, and then, you know, design and optimize experiences within that, they may notice it, but, But in noticing it, they're appreciating it. 

[00:20:59] Matt Duench: What we feel at Okta in terms of like how identity fits into all of this, right? And, and we really see it as kind of like critical to how you balance the delivery. Have really great experiences and security at the same time. Um, I'd love your thoughts on that. You know, in terms of how you think about, or, you know, to what extent you incorporate elements of identity into the user experience when you're building, and within the products you build, do you, have you have thoughts on that? On, on sort of the areas that, you know, you'd look at incorporating?

[00:21:26] Geordie McClelland: I, I think the most fundamental piece is, you know, to build a good product, to build a good product experience, you need to establish trust, um, and trust and confidence in that, especially when we start to get into med tech. Um, um, You know, and, and, and even, you know, uh, kinda enterprise software systems where your job and your company kind of rely on effective use of, of these tools. So, um, you know, whether as an individual user or as like an administrator within those environments, uh, to be able to embrace technology, you need to feel a level of confidence, um, in its security. In the sense that this, the people who are using this are in fact the people they say they are. Um, and, and, you know, without that trust, it's, it's really, there's, there's nothing there, honestly.

[00:22:18] Um, you know, there's, there's one, there's, there's, I. Too many other kind of competitors out there that, that will think about these things. Um, or two, you know, if, if you, you take the leap and you, you aren't thinking about that, you're gonna get burned. Um, and the downside is much bigger than the, the, the upside on it.

[00:22:37] So, you know, it, it's, it's a fundamental piece of, of how you build something, especially in some of these most secure areas, uh, in industries.

[00:22:48] Matt Duench: I feel like all of us have an example of, you know, a a at a, a signup or. A sign in, you know, a situation that that went, went bad, you forgot your password, or you tried to reset your password or you got set at a password loop. Um, or even at account creation, if the company is asking too many fields at account creation that don't make any sense to you.

[00:23:08] It's really hard to, as you said, establish that trust. You know, with customers, and I feel like everyone has a story like that. But you, you hit on something really neat, I think too, in that it does become like the user experience is like the new competitive battleground, right? When you do it well, you, that's the competitive edge that you have over any other alternative provider out there because you're able to provide an experience that creates trust with the customer that creates, you know, a frictionless experience.

[00:23:35] And on the trust side, they know. That you are gonna protect their data, um, because you've either made it clear or you've asked for their consent, but you've worked at building their trust. And the flip side of that Yeah, is, I mean, when you have a really arduous signup process or a really, you know, intense login, uh, process, that really turns people off and they will go look at your competitors, right?

[00:23:55] Because their expectations of what they, what they want that experience to be, are so high and you really need to meet them where they are. And when, when you don't, that's when they'll find a competitor.

[00:24:06] Geordie McClelland: and that expectations piece is a really interesting thing. I mean, we talk a lot. I, before I got into product design, I was in digital marketing. Um, and, um, we did a lot of work actually in, in e-commerce and, you know, those types of experiences, that's the stuff that there's millions and millions of dollars pushing at people that if you look at your consumption of digital experiences, your consumption of digital media, um, they are kind of the low barrier to entry high.

[00:24:37] Like low friction, um, you know, highly engaging, uh, experiences and, you know, that sets an expectation for how you should interact with anything. Um, you know, whether you're coming into work, you know, and if that work is in, um, you know, a, uh, a software development company or your work is in a hospital system, You still have that expectation that's, that's set, um, you know, outside in the consumer world and you know, there's gonna be someone in all of those spaces that's gonna continue to try to learn from those consumer worlds seamless. And, you know, I wanna press a button and a lift is around the corner. Like that's a expectation setting thing for. How physicians wanna work in an exam room. Um, you know, as much experience and expertise as they have, like, you know, that that ease of use is, is always gonna be at least in the back of their mind of like, well, why isn't it like this?

[00:25:37] Matt Duench: That convenience piece is something I think about a lot. I mean, if you just kind of take a step back from some of your favorite applications, I'll use like, you know, Starbucks has an example, 

[00:25:46] I can basically create my order, send it to the location, and go there and pick it up and walk away with that convenient, that ease of convenience having never had to, you know, go in and, and have somebody write down my order and potentially get it wrong or potentially get it lost. I mean, yeah, there's that element. Now that is the expectation that convenience is, is just everywhere. And like you said, I think that's, that's a coffee shop example. But I think it, it doesn't, it doesn't matter if you're in a, in an like an emergency room in a hospital or you happen to be in a manufacturing plant or in an e-commerce environment.

[00:26:20] That's the expectation, is that simplicity, the ease of use and the secure transaction as well. From a digital perspective. I think that's what, what people just expect now.

[00:26:30] Geordie McClelland: if you think about like what's, what's truly innovative, um, Oftentimes it's, it's finding just those, those little interactions that maybe have been set in a different environment or different type of use case, but people start to kind of feel comfortable with and, and, and really build behaviors around, and then leverage that into a completely new space.

[00:26:51] Um, and that's one of the things, you know, We have a diverse set of, of clients here at Deve. And, and I've been lucky over the course of my career to work across a lot of different industries. And there's always something that you can take from those different industries and kind of bring in. Um, and it's just that, that that continual learning and in, in some ways it's, uh, you know, just this, this, this kind of core idea that, that, that people make a mental reference of. Um, well, The one that, the one that's amazing, and I just read, it's maybe 15 years old now, but I hear it almost every, every other meeting is the Domino's Pizza tracker. Um, every industry wants their version of the Domino's Pizza Tracker, no matter what industry you're in. Uh, and you know, it, it just is just this really nice kind of mental model that says, you know, I should know. What's happening when I should know what to expect when, and that I, I need that level of transparency in any type, type of interaction that I, that I, that I do. Um, and you know, it's, it's, it was designed to tell you when a pizza's coming, but, but the application is everywhere and it's insane.

[00:28:04] Matt Duench: It is so true. 'cause I even think about often, sometimes some shipping and logistics companies that, that do struggle with some of, some of this is telling you where your package is, right? You'll get a tracking number and then the tracking number will say that it is in a warehouse and you're like, okay. And then the next thing you know is shows up at your door. And there there's this really, you know, interesting thing where you feel like this should be a solved problem. I mean, all trucks have g p s on them. It should be easy enough to, to put in real time. It's just interesting that, you know, a lot of, a lot of organizations haven't adopted this, so I'll, I'll maybe ask you this. Like, from a, a product and a design perspective, what do you think is holding like companies industries back from being able to deliver on more of these user experiences and, and secure transactions? Uh, more innovatively.

[00:28:50] Geordie McClelland: Part of it is this maybe like, techno solution type, type, uh, approach. That is, um, we are going to have teams of engineers start to build something and then, Look for application back, uh, into the market. I, I continue to be, you know, a, a real advocate in terms of, uh, you know, this, this, this customer first, user first, uh, design and, and that, that is about everything honestly. Um, so, so I think part of it is, you know, you, you create something and then search for the application and sometimes it's there, sometimes it doesn't fit. Uh, I think. Other part times it's, you know, you have a, an assumed kind of industry standard. Um, this happens a lot, I think, in areas where there's high levels of expertise. So among physicians, among, uh, um, developers or, or some places where we've certainly encountered it and the, the, the kind of industry standard of practice is a certain way. And, you know, three beers in, everyone in the industry will tell you, I have no idea why we're doing it. But then they sober up the next day and feel like they need to stay with what's, what's been happening.

[00:30:07] And there's, there's a concern about, you know, the, who's gonna take that, that first step forward because, Part of it is, you know, again, with these highly high levels of expertise for users, there's, there's an assumption that, um, they've already invested the time to understand and work through this suboptimal user experience. Um, and. If you, if you kind of back up from it and rethink that, that approach, are you gonna lose those folks or are you gonna seem, does does ease of use feel less, um, rigorous? Does ease of use feel less reliable? Um, we, we had a, a client that is, um, was doing a software redesign as they're moving from an on-premise, uh, enterprise software. Uh, Package into the cloud. And, and in doing so, asked us to kind of quote unquote modernize the experience. And we looked across all of the, the different players and there was this one core part of the experience, which was completely un indecipherable. Um, but people who've been working in the industry 10, 15 years, they could read it. They were looking at the matrix and it made sense to them. We came in and, and just kept asking really why. Um, and in, and in doing so, again, concepting, we, we actually shifted from this, this, this almost, um, Uh, spider web of, of information into really simple kind of almost building blocks if you think about children's blocks and, and how to represent the information and how to, um, manipulate the connections that the software was making. Uh, and we brought that and tested it and kept kind of testing it and people understood it immediately. And then suddenly we were talking to, to new user groups and they were understanding it. And you know, at the same time, testing back to make sure we weren't losing any of the rigor and making sure that the power users still felt comfortable there.

[00:32:18] Um, I. But it was a, it was a big leap for them. Um, and even I, I'm, I'm certain even like when on the day they went live, a lot of people were nervous, uh, um, and probably wondering why they had hired us. Um, but now they're a G two user and or leader in usability. Um, and they took a step that no one else was willing to, and they've differentiated the experience and they're growing like crazy. Um, but. There is that, there is that fear that people have invested all this time, again, especially in the highly, highly, um, uh, professional areas of, of learning and, and, and doing these things and, you know, is, is too simple, kind of the, you know, a, a potential failure. it sounds crazy, but it, but it happens I think all the time.

[00:33:06] A lot of the innovation, uh, has been kind of, From a technical perspective has been kind of caught up in large tech companies, startups, Silicon Valley, here in Boston, up in Toronto. Um, you know, these spots that are kind of, you know, digital, technical first. Um, I'm, I'm really interested to see as some of the headcounts and some of those larger companies are, are coming down and technically capable people. People with high levels of sensitivity in terms of UX start to go to maybe like more non-traditional firms that have technical needs. Um, I'm, I'm really interested to see if that population is gonna start to accelerate change in those organizations and start to make better user experiences overall just because they have an expectation set in.

[00:33:56] A place that in some ways, you know, as, as you know, pervasive as the tech is still kind of feels like it's up on a mountain. But now coming back in and like making that happen on companies in Main Street, if you will, is, is I think really exciting and interesting pattern that, we'll, we'll see what, we'll see what happens.

[00:34:13] Matt Duench: Definitely have to keep an eye on that. Something you made me think about too was how people actually approach this concept of, of building new things, right? And especially the things that maybe aren't core to your business. So you mentioned obviously building some things and testing them and figuring out, oh, we just wasted a ton of resources because that. There's actually no product market fit. But even in terms of thinking about how, you know, you, you start step one, maybe in your digital transformation or building your new application, you're thinking about this, um, and you're headed down this concept of, of, of, uh, of development. How do you think about like, innovation?

[00:34:47] How do you think about, you know, this concept of building versus buying, right? Like, um, you know, do, do you have examples of, of maybe where that makes sense in terms of. The, the development tools that you use and what you should build and what maybe you should, you should look at procuring a best in, best in breed solution.

[00:35:06] Geordie McClelland: it's a similar process about kind of, you know, looking for market opportunity for a new product. Um, you know, um, as a business I am gonna scan. You know, the, the market I'm gonna scan kind of potential customer, user needs and say, is that getting filled in the way in which I, I, I could do it. Um, or, or where there's an opportunity for me to do something better here. Uh, and, you know, I, from a product. Development perspective, you're almost doing the same thing as you understand the requirements from the product side, as you understand kind of the user needs, you understand the, the, the nature of the interface that you're gonna start to build and, and certainly from a regulatory requirements perspective.

[00:35:50] How secure this needs to be and, and the processes you need to go, um, to do that. Then you do the scan. You really say like, well, so what's out there, um, that can serve this need. Uh, and if there's something out there, I. Nine times outta 10. You know, I would say you buy, you don't build Either there's nothing out there in the market that can fit this need, so we need to, we do need to build it or by building it.

[00:36:19] There we are creating some additional IP and a better moat around our product overall, uh, to that, that is gonna lead us to a better opportunity for success. Um, and, and those from a, from a technology perspective, I mean, those are the, the types of. Discussions that, you know, I, I look to kind of our, our, our kind of engineering consulting teams where they can really do a, a great assessment and working along with me and my team understanding those requirements, um, and their ability to kind of know what's, what's feasible, what's available, um, you know, a great technical consultants. Will surprise you almost all the time in terms of like, oh, we'll figure out how to do it and even push you to how to do it a little bit better. Um, those are the folks that I really love working with.

[00:37:12] Matt Duench: when you think about the future, like what's happening with technology and some of the trends there, what are some of the trends that you are seeing in technology development that you're, you're kind of keeping an eye on?

[00:37:21] Geordie McClelland: Yeah, I mean, we haven't talked very much about it yet. Um, so just to make sure we get our check mark, uh, you know, our AI check mark, I mean, we, it, you've gotta make sure you know it. It's something we're highly sensitive to in terms of, you know, Every phase of product development.

[00:37:39] We've certainly seen increases in efficiencies using tools like copilot from a development side, uh, to, to make that happen. You know, the other side of that though is, you know, I think some, some fundamental questions. I think one of the things that, that really drew me to, um, to delve is, uh, their 55 years of getting things to market and building, building products and industries around those products. There's a, there's a high level of practicality in what they do. And success isn't just, you know, kind of the, the, the great moment at c e s that people talk about, but you never see in the market. Um, it's more about the, the, the interactions that you have with these tools in your workplace, in your life. With that level of practicality, there's, I think, um, some, some healthy skepticism about kind of the, you know, the nature of kind of existing AI models, um, from data security perspectives, um, you know, both in terms of. How we feed that with new information. And then even just fundamental questions about kind of the, the, the, the information that's gone into the original data sets.

[00:38:53] Um, and, and what that means again, from, from a user perspective. Um, you know, if you think about, uh, you know, some of the challenges with like facial recognition and how that doesn't. Kind of, it doesn't track consistently across races. If you were to, to build something people first, it would maybe act very differently than let's build the model and now try to apply it to those spaces.

[00:39:16] That means that, you know, marginalized communities maybe further marginalized and we need to be conscious Of that and understand what that, that the implications are for that. Um, and, and that also becomes a decision point of, well, Can we use it? What's the, what's the risk of, uh, copyrighted material suddenly being taken out of the dataset because that wasn't part of the original consideration in building it.

[00:39:42] Um, you know, those are really fundamental questions that a lot of people are talking about. Um, and finally starting to get, I think some, uh, um, uh, some airtime for those concerns, even though I, I think they've been around for a long time. Uh, so, you know, I think there's a cautious optimism. Um, but kind of a pragmatic kind of, you know, mindful approach for how and when we're gonna use those tools going forward.

[00:40:09] Matt Duench: Hard to believe that we've made it to this point of the show. And this is the first real mention of like Gen generative ai, because I think that's exactly it. And it, and it's interesting too to see how rapidly, uh, you know, things are evolving with Gen AI specifically. I mean, even if you look at. Like Dowley and some of the AI generated images from even eight months ago, they were unrecognizable. Or, you know, somebody would have three arms and, you know, like it, it just, it was, it was, but now it's getting to the point where if you have two images side by side, it's getting really difficult to tell which one is real and which one was generated by AI and, and isn't it? And that's, and that's only in a few, very few short months. So it, it's, I think for me, I. Because you mentioned, obviously, over your 25 years, having only really seen a couple of like majorly impactful technology trends. 

[00:41:00] Geordie McClelland: I think so.

[00:41:01] Matt Duench: or it's definitely we're on the cusp of something, you know, pretty, pretty unbelievable and amazing. I think that's gonna have just transformative effects across every single industry. So it's pretty, it's pretty neat to see.

[00:41:12] Geordie McClelland: The pizza tracker version that I would love to see and I, I, so I, I, I talk about this as more of, um, you know, someone who, who learns from great people in terms of ai, but, but certainly is not an expert in ai. But you know, the idea that, um, instead of tracking when my pizza's gonna come, if I could see where my data plays in data sets, especially as an owner of copyright, um, That would be fascinating and potentially super valuable. Um, in, in terms of again, you know, ownership, uh, compensation, uh, just general approval for, uh, you know, this, I think participation in the, um, you know, I think that, uh, a lot of ways the future of digital technology, some of which people have opted in on, and some of which they haven't.

[00:42:04] Matt Duench: That's a really good point too. Uh, and one I think that applies across AI is this concept of opting in and consent. I think, like, folks thinking about building these experiences is, is you know, how you build trust, but also how you create trust through consent and almost when it comes to ai and as it proliferates and, and gets introduced into more of technologies, having folks actually consent to the level at which they want to interact with AI is going to be something I think to keep an eye on as well. Because sometimes, you know, if it's creating an itinerary, maybe for a trip to Boston to see Geordie. Um, you know, as an example, what should I do when I'm there? These sorts of things that shouldn't be a problem, but I mean, in terms of, of maybe profiling somebody, et cetera, that's gonna need a lot of consent. Uh, and then making it regularly available as well so that I can validate that and provide, you know, maybe I want to change things over time and giving people the flexibility to actually do that. So it's not constantly mining the person's data that they have made a conscious choice that there's a value exchange. And they've made a conscious choice to actually, you know, uh, give you, give, you know, AI gen, AI, access to that data.

[00:43:09] Geordie McClelland: I hope that's the case. I, I, Really do. Um, and I, and I hope that there's continued movement and, and you know, there's. There's always the challenge and, and especially in this space where, you know, again, you take, you take this people first perspective, sometimes, you know, people are gonna make you sound like a Luddite. And especially with a title like mine, you know, that's maybe the last thing that you want to do. But at the same time, you know, thinking about the sustainability of this and the businesses that will rely on it, um, you know, I, I'm a strong believer that there is just, I. Businesses have responsibilities to, you know, people who are providing the input to what they sell and people that are experiencing the output of it.

[00:43:54] And, you know, that's the next few years is gonna be a wild, and I, and I hope really positive ride in, in figuring that out. But it's, um, it's, it's not gonna be like it, it's not gonna be like anything I've experienced, I think in my career so far. I know that.

[00:44:11] Matt Duench: Yeah. It's really incredible to be at, I think, this point, uh, and be able to see everything and how rapidly it's evolving. It's incredible.

[00:44:17] So a couple of, uh, of just like really quick hit questions for you. Um, you know, get folks the opportunity to, to know you a little more. I guess the first thing is, is there something at Delve or something that you're interested, you're most excited about launching this year?

[00:44:32] Geordie McClelland: This is where I, I. A, a, a real kind of nerd for like very specific software that we designed for very specific industries that have maybe been ignored by others. And we're, we're working on with this, this startup called Centerpiece. Um, and they identified, um, the, this industry, which is food, service and equipment. Um, effectively the management of all of the buildings, all of the equipment, uh, that goes into the interior of a restaurant or any place where you're, you're doing food, um, There's one incumbent going back to our earlier conversation that's kind of been around for 40 years. Um, and you talk to users and you know, everyone has learned how to deal with it. Um, but really there's been no innovation, both in terms of how product projects are managed, how communications across really disparate types of groups. And we're talking, you know, hundreds of millions of dollar companies down to, you know, Joe who has a truck who's gonna. Check in, um, and confirm that something's installed, right. Uh, and, and then a marketplace where, you know, all of those products can be presented and sold. Um, there's just huge opportunities there and it's niche enough that it's been ignored and, and in. Designing this work. You know, it's, it's one of those things where I think we we're building very, very specific for a super specific industry, super specific type of user. It presents potentially a, a really interesting new way of doing work and coordinating across a lot of super disparate types of, of user groups. Um, it's. It's, you know, it's, it's super specific, super, uh, super niche. Um, and, you know, because of that, there's just tons of opportunity for, for, for bringing new things to the world there.

[00:46:31] Matt Duench: Love it. what's, uh, what's maybe something you're reading or watching right now that you're really into?

[00:46:37] Geordie McClelland: I'm reading right now actually Tom Nichols book, uh, the Death of Expertise, um, which is really fascinating. So he is a professor at the Naval War College. His general thesis is, you know, that, uh, Our kind of civic discourse has been brought down so much because we don't respect, um, and are able to identify true expertise, um, which is really interesting in terms of like, How I think about what I want to do for, for everyday people, um, because it's almost in direct conflict with, with that thesis. I mean, from medical perspective, I want patients to feel more empowered with the information that they can, can act on their own. Um, and, you know, uh, versus. You know, the idea of a, a patient coming into a, a doctor with 40 years practice and saying, well, I saw this thing on the internet, um, why shouldn't I have this drug? Or, or why shouldn't I be doing this? And there's, there's this conflict that I, that so far, you know, as I, as I look at what we've done in these spaces, um, I've come to realize that it may actually not be a conflict. 'cause what we're really doing is trying to bridge that connection from the experts into, um, People on an everyday basis and making sure that, you know, they feel confident.

[00:47:59] There was a study that, um, that I've told so many times, I'm, I'm certain I've got the numbers wrong now, but it was just basic idea that, um, when a patient leaves the exam room, by the time they get to their car, they've forgotten something like 75% of what their physician told them. So it, we could even just bridge that connection with that true expertise like, That makes a real difference in, in terms of outcomes and empowers people while not kind of de-legitimizing the expertise of, of the physician that's that's there to treat them.

[00:48:31] Matt Duench: That's incredible. I'll have to check that book out. That's awesome. Where can folks find you online? What's the best way to get ahold of you?

[00:48:37] Geordie McClelland: Right now, LinkedIn's probably the best spot for me. Geordie McClelland, uh, and LinkedIn. But

[00:48:42] Matt Duench: Well, that's awesome. Hey, this was a, a really great chat. Really appreciate you joining the Mistaken Identity Identity Podcast. 

[00:48:48] Geordie McClelland: Thank you so much, Matt. Really enjoyed it.

[00:48:50] Matt Duench: That was Jordy McClelland, Head of Digital Strategy at Delve. As we wrap up today's episode, remember that when serving people, the process has to start and end with the customer. I'm Matt Duench. Join me next time on Mistaken Identity as we explore how to leverage customer identity to your advantage and deliver great products that customers love.